Effective Social Media

  • 13 September, 2022
  • 69.4 MB

From consistent engagement and optimization to those pesky, ever-changing algorithms, social media can be an intimidating monster to just about anyone. But the audience is there and you have to capitalize on it — It’s FREE for God’s sake! Bob Simon welcomes two women who have built careers on doing just that and they’re slaying the beast on a daily basis: Michelle Fonseca-Kamana, The Queen of Lemon Law, and Jacey Corley, the Chief Creative Officer of Outlier Creative Agency.

Michelle Fonseca-Kamana, West Coast Lemons

Jacey Corley, Outlier Creative Agency


Bob Simon (00:06):
Well, good morning, good afternoon, good night, wherever you are. Welcome to this episode of the Justice Team Podcast and we’re very excited to have two special guests and we’re going to talk about something that’s quite useful for every lawyer and that is leveraging social media for lawyers. And our guests today, first I want to introduce to you Michelle Fonseca who is with West Coast Lemons and she has probably done the best job I’ve ever seen of starting her own firm and immediately branding herself. Probably started before that and we’ll talk about it where everybody thinks Lemon Law and they think of Michelle. So welcome Michelle, by the way, if you go into Instagram and you type in Lemon Law, I’m pretty sure you’ll find one of her GIFs or is it GIF?

Michelle Fonseca-Kamana (00:47):
Either way, either way but you’ll find a nice hair flip in there. Thanks for having me.

Bob Simon (00:54):
Yeah, and we also have on Jacey Corley, who is Jacey you just got promoted. So, what is your title? You’re now the Chief Creative Officer?

Jacey Corley (01:03):
I did, I did, big promotion excited about it.

Bob Simon (01:07):
Where are you coming from us today? Are you in Georgia, Alabama, where you at?

Jacey Corley (01:11):
I am in Atlanta, Georgia that’s where I am currently. I go back and forth to my roots in Alabama every once in a while, but I’m in the ATL today.

Bob Simon (01:21):
And Jacey is with Outlier Creative Agency and she’s the mastermind behind a lot of my personal reels and a lot of things for other folks. And she’s going to explain to you, just come sign up the logistics, some of the easy things and hacks that you can do as a lawyer to leverage social media. So, first I’m going to start with you Michelle, so we hear a lot about digital marketing and SEO and Pay-Per-Click. Do you do that stuff? What is the difference between what you do and that other role that people take of paying other agencies to do that kind of stuff?

Michelle Fonseca-Kamana (01:54):
Yeah, so I started out my firm three weeks before the pandemic hit. So, you go into starting a firm knowing you’re not going to get paid for a while. So, I didn’t have the luxury of paying for Pay-Per-Click and SEO and the big fancy website. So, I had to get real scrappy and essentially MacGyver this whole law firm together and the way that I did that was via social media. So, it’s a beautiful thing because any law firm can use it, it’s completely free. So, the only thing that you’re really spending is your time and I understand time is money, but if you don’t have a whole lot of money to spend, social media is a fantastic way for you to not only brand yourself as an attorney, brand your law firm, make connections both direct to consumer and with potential referral partners.

Bob Simon (02:42):
Yeah, but is it free? What applications, if any, do you use in conjunction with, what platforms are you on? Let’s start there and how do you use them and how do you leverage it?

Michelle Fonseca-Kamana (02:57):
So, I’m on everything but Twitter right now. So, I’m on Facebook, LinkedIn, YouTube, Instagram, TikTok. And my strategy has been having presence on as many platforms as you can because increasingly, I’m seeing being on social media platforms is a credibility check mark. Just like having a website as a credibility check mark, people are going to look into your presence and try to figure out a little bit about who you are and what you’re about. So, I’ve had this baseline presence on all these platforms but I’ve really gone in on Instagram and so I do everything directly on that platform. I don’t use crazy editing apps, anything like that, you really don’t need to.

Michelle Fonseca-Kamana (03:39):
So, you don’t need to be too text savvy to be able to figure out how to do this. I do everything, all the filming directly on the Instagram reels page, all the editing on there. You just save it to drafts, I like to batch my content but it’s a one stop shop you really just need an iPhone and an Instagram account and you’re good to go.

Bob Simon (04:00):
Yeah, so Jacey talk to us about branding with intention and that conversation that your agency has with people like me and others that are your clients about doing things specifically with a purpose on social media across any platforms.

Jacey Corley (04:20):
Absolutely, it’s really important we start out with any client, whether that’s someone that we know through mutual people or we know nothing about them. First, just having that open conversation of who you are and how you want to be portrayed. A lot of people, I think when they first want to start a business that they get so called up in making these check marks of all these other things that includes opening or starting a business. And they don’t think about really who they are and that perception that they want people to receive them as. And so, we always start conversation, getting to know them of course, we always send a brand questionnaire.

Jacey Corley (05:05):
And a brand questionnaire is a really, really good starting point, especially if you really don’t know who you are as a brand and you’re trying to establish that. And we’ve even heard back from clients that we’ve worked with for years that maybe they want to update that brand questionnaire. Maybe they haven’t visited who they are in a while and they want to portray themselves in a different way, so a brand questionnaire is always a good thing. And if you don’t have a brand questionnaire, just even asking yourself or your business partners, do we want to be a serious brand? Do we want to be funny? Bob, I think we all know you’re very serious, no jokes ever.

Bob Simon (05:55):
You got to be authentic. Yeah, I mean you got to be completely authentic, right? But Jacey, have you ever worked with somebody or somebody that wanted to work with you and it was like, “This person sucks. The stuff they put on their brand things and you’re like, “We can’t do it, we can’t do this.” Does that ever happen?

Jacey Corley (06:12):
Of course, it never happens. The real thing is, the honest truth is as a creative agency, we don’t want to change you. We’re not trying to sit here and make up this whole narrative that we think you should be. The most important thing is that you’re staying authentic, staying genuine to who you are as a brand, as a person, as a company. And we have a wide variety of clients across the board who fall under very different genres in that sense. And I wouldn’t say any one way is better than the other, it’s just whatever is the most comfortable for you and your brand, because it’s easier to create content that way as well.

Bob Simon (06:56):
Michelle, walk us through both you, with you and your brand. You came out right away and I think Lemon Law, I just think of you, I go right to your handle. Walk us through, did you do this intentionally? Did you start with a website? How did you identify that brand and have people when they think Lemon law, they think of you?

Michelle Fonseca-Kamana (07:11):
So, it was intentional, from the very beginning I wanted to stand out, starting with my logo and my tagline. So, especially in Lemon Law, everyone has the same logo, it’s a lemon with two little wheels. And I was like, “I can’t do that, I need to do something different.” And so, I really had to think about, okay, how do I differentiate myself in every way that I can? So, starting with the logo, I had something that hasn’t really been seen before. In terms of the tagline, a spin-off of “When Life Gives You Lemons, I’ll Get You Justice.” Very catchy one liner that when I introduce myself to people, they’re going to remember that.

Michelle Fonseca-Kamana (07:52):
Colors, website and being a niche law firm, all I do is Lemon, I don’t handle anything else. So, it’s a lot easier to have people keep me top of mind because it’s not like, “Oh, I do lemon law and I do personal [inaudible 00:08:07] and I do some estate planning on the side. It’s a lot easier to have someone remember what you do if all you do is one thing and you’re constantly reminding them, “This is what I do.” And social media is the best way for me to consistently and in different ways remind people, “Hey, I do lemon law because I’m giving you educational content, funny content,” stuff like that.

Michelle Fonseca-Kamana (08:31):
Taking people through my law firm journey as well, that just keeps people thinking, “Okay, lemon law, West Coast Lemons,” it all ties together, it all works together.

Bob Simon (08:45):
How much I much of your business do you generate from social media?

Michelle Fonseca-Kamana (08:50):
Most of it, I would say it’s changed recently. I’m getting a lot more from Google my business because I’ve put a lot more time into getting reviews. So, I do have a decent return there but once again, it’s completely free. All my sources of business are free, which is a beautiful thing but social media has opened up so many doors for me as well. I wouldn’t be in Justice HQ if I hadn’t put myself out there on social media, I never would’ve met you, been on this podcast.

Michelle Fonseca-Kamana (09:24):
But social media was my way to let people know what I do and bring people on my journey to the point where they not only know what I do, they’re cheering me on, they’re supporting me, they’re rooting me on in this journey and that is a powerful thing.

Bob Simon (09:41):
Yeah, so how do you like, just walk us through when you’re starting out, the website you need, some people I hear want to charge $15,000, $20,000, $25,000 for a website and do all these things and optimize it. People, folks just don’t have money when they’re starting, I certainly didn’t and you probably didn’t. So, walk us through what you think is important to have in your website and why?

Michelle Fonseca-Kamana (10:05):
So, you want it to be absolutely clear on that homepage what it is that you do and how to contact you. So, I really suggest on that first page, without them even needing to scroll, have some kind of box there where they can send you their information, request a free consultation. Don’t make them search for how to get in touch with you. Make it as easy as possible and just provide good content, help them out, teach them what it is you can do for them. And have a picture, have a current picture, for me I’m not going to post anything from high school, I’m not that old yet. But for my older attorneys, maybe something in the last couple years with your current hair color would be helpful and a little bit more genuine for the clients that will end up hiring you. They’ll put a face to the name.

Bob Simon (10:58):
Yeah, and I think it’s important that I’ve been to people’s websites and I have no fucking clue how to contact them. There’s no email, there’s no, it’s a phone number. I don’t want to fucking call somebody, just want to a really quick hit. So, Jacey, when you have new clients and you’re going over their brand, you do their website and stuff, is there a direction you’re pushing people? Do you want them to have this stodgy feel? Are you ever frustrated with people that don’t want to evolve into the new way of doing things? How’s that journey from you, from the creative agency standpoint?

Jacey Corley (11:36):
Well, luckily for us, I think by the time clients reach out to us, they’ve already recognized that they need some sprucing up, whether that would be website or social media, they see that need. And luckily, we’re blessed in that space where they come to us and they recognize that it’s needed. So, we don’t have that much of an issue as far as once we’re in that client communication, the understandment is there and usually at that point the understandment and the need for it is there and also the want and the willingness. So, I would say I really love working with all of our clients and they’re always really open to whatever we suggest.

Bob Simon (12:21):
And you’ve made me do some crazy shit with reels and things like that so let’s talk about that. So, first of all, there’s various platforms Michelle talked about, right? Instagram, TikTok, Facebook, DuckDuckGo, I don’t know what else is out there. But is Facebook dead? Where are people going these days?

Jacey Corley (12:42):
Yeah, that’s always a funny question because we see it all the time from clients to even just friends and the question of Facebook is dead, they’re usually surprised when outlier comes back and says, “No, that Facebook is definitely not dead.” I don’t foresee it dying anytime soon. If you look at the data, Facebook is still the highest number of active users all across the world. They’re averaging around 2.9 billion users, which I think the next one is Instagram around 1.3. So, that’s a big space and so no, to answer your question, Facebook is not dead. I think the way we’re using Facebook is always changing, we’re in the metaverse now.

Jacey Corley (13:35):
But one big thing that I think that is very under-utilized is Facebook groups. I think a lot of people when they think of Facebook, they either think for personal use or just pay to play. We have to pay for these ads and we have to jump up the price and to get any type of reach but Facebook groups is a huge platform that should be utilized there’s tons and tons of groups you can join even in the law space. Find one that works for you and my advice to firms or solo attorneys would be to join those groups, find those groups that resonate with you and your brand and start that communication. Start engaging and creating those relationships, you never know that could be your next referral, that could be your next partner in business. The opportunities are out there and I think it’s under-utilized absolutely.

Bob Simon (14:36):
I think Michelle brings out the best point is all of these things are free, it’s just your time, right? So, Michelle when you started, as opposed to now, I think your firm just had your two-year anniversary, how much of your time do you actually spend? How much time do you actually spend marketing?

Michelle Fonseca-Kamana (14:55):
So, currently it takes me about two hours to bust out 10 reels so about a month’s worth of content I can do in about two hours. At the beginning I had a lot of time because I didn’t have a lot of clients, there was a learning curve. So, I did try a lot of different things and actually in looking back at my journey on social media, a lot of my early posts were very cringy. I had some weirdly lit YouTube videos where I’m really little on the screen and I had to try a lot of different things to figure out what was going to work for me and my brand.

Michelle Fonseca-Kamana (15:38):
So, I would recommend to anyone out there don’t be afraid, you’re going to try and you’re going to fail but you’re going to learn a lot in the process and you’re going to figure out what works best. But it’s going to be trial and error because everyone has a different vibe, has a different process, has a different voice. So, you need to try out different things in order to figure out, okay, what’s going to work for you? And once you figure that out, for me and Instagram reels, you go all in.

Bob Simon (16:06):
Yeah, so with reels they change the algorithms, I think Facebook said something the other day is they’re going to try to optimize reels for everybody. So, how do you affect it? Because you use them very effectively and one thing, I think you do better than most people is you use it as an educational tool. I see a lot of your stuff and its stuff about lemon law because I don’t practice that area that I did not know. I did not know that you don’t charge a feed that the other side pays for it but I knew that from your reel it was educational. So, walk us through, you do those just on Instagram using that app to create those reels?

Michelle Fonseca-Kamana (16:41):
Yeah, so I do everything on Instagram and what I’ll do is I’ll strategically repurpose different content on the different platforms. So, for Facebook, a lot of things like reviews and testimonials and the educational ones, those do pretty well and remind people, “Okay, she’s still out there.” But I’m not as consistent and aggressive on Facebook, I’m just every once in a while, throw something out there. On LinkedIn they love to celebrate you, especially with the two-year anniversary thing, people want to cheer you on, people want to know what’s going on, how your business is doing.

Michelle Fonseca-Kamana (17:17):
So, putting that stuff out there, putting results out there and I did one about where I started versus where I am now and I put it on LinkedIn and it did very, very well. So, business wise do pretty well on LinkedIn, longer captions tend to do pretty well on LinkedIn, people want to go on there and read about business stuff. So, put your stuff out there in terms of where you’re at with your business or a recent result and you can get some traction. But definitely diversify your content, you don’t want to post the same exact piece everywhere.

Bob Simon (17:55):
And that’s one thing that you know shared some tips, one is when you’re starting out you just need the bare minimum website, it’s a credibility check. Two, you talk about be mindful of online presence everywhere but don’t overdo it. And one you just brought out is know your audience for whatever platform or channel you’re using. So, do you think there’s different audiences and your content is different from LinkedIn to Instagram to Facebook?

Michelle Fonseca-Kamana (18:19):
Absolutely, so a lot of my entertaining, funny, cheeky stuff, I’m not really putting on LinkedIn, it’s much more serious of a platform so I am mindful of that. Facebook, it’s more of an age difference I see in terms of what your audience is. So, for Facebook it’s more consumers, friends, family that outreach is what I see. I post on the business and I also post on my personal page and I do get people from high school reaching out to me like, “Oh my gosh, I had no idea you did lemon law. I actually have a problem with my Ford.”

Michelle Fonseca-Kamana (18:57):
And so, you’re subtly putting it out there like, “Hey this is what I do,” and you’re going to get a slow return on that. But for me, Instagram was the best because I started out my firm having no connections in the industry. So, I’ve started following all the law firm pages that were on there and trying to make connections with them supporting other people tends to go a very, very long way. So, especially with social media on Instagram, you’re going to get what you put into it. So, you can’t just post stuff and expect everyone to like and share and comment and follow if you’re not doing the same thing for other people so you get what you put in.

Bob Simon (19:37):
Yeah, so Jacey, whenever you talk about, we talk a lot about with our meetings how you analyze the data and figure out what reels do well and when people tend to watch more things and how to show up on their feet. Can you walk through our listeners and viewers through how you look at that data, how you analyze it, how you optimize the content that you’re putting out there so it’s actually reaching people?

Jacey Corley (20:02):
Yeah, absolutely and like Michelle said, education is always good. I like to keep in usually my three pillars as far as real specifically what are you trying to put out either something educational, something entertaining or something inspiring. And you should really, in every piece of content, not just specifically reels but since we’re talking about reels and data, you should always try and fall in one of those. And if the content you’re wanting to do or the idea doesn’t fall in one of those pillars, I would recommend just taking a step back and thinking, “Well how can I make it fall into one of these pillars?”

Jacey Corley (20:47):
And then as far as the data goes, Instagram, the insights in the app itself are amazing. There’s other resources of course that you can use different websites or different apps but anybody, as long as you have a creator page or a business page, which most people listening probably will or should be side note, if not, you should definitely change to that so you can really take a deep dive into the analytics. They give you so much information, percentage of male to female, where are they located, what times they’re most active. So, you can look at the data and I would always say yes, look at the data and see what works.

Jacey Corley (21:36):
But also going off that just what works for you isn’t going to work for everyone else. And that’s when Michelle, when you were talking about just staying true to who you are and what did you want people to know about you. So, if you look and something is working for you at a specific type of content, it is trial and error, Michelle, you mentioned that earlier. You need to trial and error to see what works and what doesn’t and just looking at the numbers themselves, if you have a video that gets 500 views and then you have one that gets 5,000 views, okay, what did I do in this one that got 5,000 that I didn’t do in the 500 and keep doing that.

Bob Simon (22:21):
And how do you stay at the top of people’s feeds because the apps have to predict whose view box you’re going to show up on. Who’s going to show up at the top of your Instagram feed, whose stories I’m going to see? With mine, I could tell, I could see the spikes and story views usually for some reason it’s usually Sunday nights to Monday mornings are my highest views. I don’t know if it’s the same if you’ve looked at that too, Michelle and then Thursday or Thursday nights, I don’t know, it’s weird but I just, maybe that’s because when I’m fucking around with my kids most of the time, I don’t know. But have you noticed spikes? Do you look at that stuff too, Michelle, when you go through your social media?

Michelle Fonseca-Kamana (23:02):
Yeah, so mine’s actually, I’ve got a lunchtime crowd. My views are the highest around lunchtime Monday through Friday so my followers tend to drop off on the weekends and I think it is because I do have a lot of attorney accounts and stuff. So, I think they’re not on their pages on the weekends, they’re on their pages Monday through Friday and that lunchtime you’re just scrolling through Instagram and having a bite.

Bob Simon (23:29):
So, Jacey is there a way for viewers or listeners to make sure that they’re showing up on people’s feeds and on their stories? How does that algorithm work?

Jacey Corley (23:42):
Yeah, absolutely, I think you always have the data that you can just find online from these huge massive websites that all they do is just spit out data consistently. But I think there’s a balance, I think you have to look and see again what works for you might not work all the way across the board. Statistically 6:00 AM the early morning is overall, “The best time,” but at the end of the day you can take that and if it doesn’t work for you, then that’s okay. It’s an ongoing joke and if you’re on social media and at Outlier as well that, “Oh here’s the algorithm coming up with something different now,” they love to keep us on our toes.

Jacey Corley (24:30):
But yeah, one tip is consistency and I would say that across all platforms, but the more consistent you are, the more you’re showing up, the more you’re showing your face, Michelle like you mentioned, you wanted to be the face of your brand, that’s really important. And showing up, whether that’s Instagram stories or an in-feed post or a real consistency is going to help you time aside, consistency and just showing up on a routinely basis and sticking to it. You’re going to see your stories go more towards the front, your post whether in-feed or real, showing more up at the top. And at the end of the day two, loyalty is big so your loyal followers, your loyal friends, family, admirers, whatever they are, they come to your page because you’re providing something for them. So, naturally you’re going to show up a little more on the top of theirs as well.

Bob Simon (25:35):
How important is it for you to have comments on your post and you to respond to people that make comments on your post and then go to their page and then like their stuff and comment on their stuff. I mean, is that important? Does it work? Does it matter?

Jacey Corley (25:50):
Absolutely it matters, all those things you just mentioned would fall under engagement. And engagement really is key, I would say from just a brand recognition standpoint and also an algorithm standpoint, they’re both equally as important. If people are commenting and you are not engaging with them and not having those conversations, there is potential that they could say, “Oh they’re not genuine or I don’t trust this content as much because I’m not seeing that communication from them.” And algorithm wise just as equal, each algorithm for each platform no matter what you’re using, their goal is they want you to be on their app, they want you to spend the most time on that app.

Jacey Corley (26:42):
And it’s a funny thing that it’s almost like you get rewarded, it’s like, “Here’s your little treat, you’ve been on our app a lot, you’re doing a good job. So, we’re going to push this out to more people, we see you using all the different elements within our app.” So, engagement absolutely, I would say engagement is just as important as the content itself. If you’re not engaging, the content will go flat.

Bob Simon (27:05):
And Michelle, how important it is for you to put that call to action in the stuff that you’re doing, whether it’s educational, whether it’s entertaining for every post. I mean, do you intentionally put a call to action for somebody to do something after they see you or listen?

Michelle Fonseca-Kamana (27:21):
It definitely helps because people want know how you want them engage. If you don’t say anything, they’re going to be like, “Should I comment, should I not?” And then they’re not going to do anything but if you strategically ask like, “Oh well, what do you think? Have you had this experience?” You’re inviting them to give you engagement but you’re also going learn about your audience which is something that I started doing probably in the last six to nine months is putting a lot more polls and having people engage and give me some information.

Michelle Fonseca-Kamana (27:54):
I’ve learned so much more about my audience and what’s important to them, what they’re going through, what they want to see. Just by having those calls to action, having those polls in the stories, asking those questions in my post and asking them to comment. So, it’s a tool you can use, it’s going to help your engagement and help people see your stuff but you’re also going to learn more about other people and build on those relationships that you’re trying to grow.

Bob Simon (28:21):
Yeah, and so first we start with Jacey and I ask Michelle the same question. What do you think are just some best social media practices for those solo or small firms to help them stand out and understand their target audience?

Jacey Corley (28:38):
Yeah, I think it’s a handful of things. I think first is Michelle, like you mentioned, putting yourself out there, you can’t be scared some things are going to flop and some things are going to work. And if you’re waiting on the right time, there’s never going to be a right time, point number one, you’ve got to just do it. Two is going back to brand identity, who you are, what you want to portray and it’s important to have those, some people call them content buckets, some people call them content pillars. What is the information that you want to portray to your audience? That’s important-

Bob Simon (29:18):
How about defining your audience? If a lawyer goes in there, are they targeting these types of consumers? Are they targeting other lawyers? Do you help? Same for Michelle, Michelle, I assume you’re targeting both buckets because you probably get a lot of lawyer referrals and direct to consumer referrals. Are you intentional with saying, “Hey, this is my audience,” right?

Michelle Fonseca-Kamana (29:40):
Yeah, so it goes back to what Jacey was saying is the three pillars of content. I have a very similar pillar strategy, educate, entertain, or empower, if you’re falling in those buckets, you’re going to be reaching most people’s target audience, whether it’s direct to consumer, they’re going to like those three genres. Whether you’re going trying to build referral partners, they’re also going to like those three. Because like you said with the educational thing, you didn’t know certain things about lemon law, so suddenly you’re like, “Oh she must actually know what she’s doing because I’m learning some stuff too.”

Michelle Fonseca-Kamana (30:17):
So, subliminally those things are going to attract people in both of those buckets. But in terms of best practices, I saw this post somewhere that said a business on Instagram without a LinkedIn in bio is just a mood board. You need to make it easy for people to contact you, otherwise you’re putting out all this content for what? People aren’t going to try very hard to get in touch with you and there’s so many ways to make it easy. Put your phone number in your bio, if you can’t fit the phone number in your bio, you can actually set up a little button where they click to contact you. You can set up your phone number and your email to pop up there.

Michelle Fonseca-Kamana (31:03):
LinkedIn bio, a lot of people aren’t using that effectively in my opinion because they’ll put some LinkedIn bio that’s not their website, it’s just some random thing they’re promoting and then they forget about it. And then someone that actually wants to get in touch with them later on, it’s like, “I don’t know where your website is, I don’t know how to get in touch with you, I have nothing.” So, I highly recommend a link tree, so you can put as many links as you can in your website, all your other social media profiles, an article that you wrote. The possibilities are endless and once again it can be completely free. So, use as many of these free tools as possible to reach your audience and make it easy for your audience to reach you.

Bob Simon (31:47):
Wow, very quick, hit something the link tree stuff, having contact these are things everybody should be doing, easy to contact. Jacey, tell me about hashtags, are they important? How are they used or how are they used well? I try to just do it because I think it’s funny. I just put a stupid hashtag up and then you have to go in and fix it for me because I messed around too much. But just talk to us about are they important, what do they do and how do you use them?

Jacey Corley (32:15):
Yeah, they’re definitely important and that goes back to the funny little thing about the algorithm. Even in the past year we have seen so many changes, at first was for years actually, it was the question of do hashtags go in the caption or do they go in the comments? And I actually did a reel on Outlier’s page once the founder of Instagram came out in a blog article and said that it was supposed to be in the captions. And again, everyone’s got their own personal opinions about it usually, but information like that utilize it. So, what did we start doing? We started putting it in the caption, you can use up to 30 hashtags, at one point the algorithm was saying, “Hey, use all 30.” A few months ago it went from six to 10 and then it went a step farther and they said you should only be using three to five.

Bob Simon (33:11):
How do you find this shit out? Do they post it somewhere and it says what they’re doing?

Jacey Corley (33:16):
Well, I tend to keep up with the trends but Instagram has its own blog and that’s where if there’s any new features, any new updates and you’ll be surprised sometimes they just randomly dropped this bomb of knowledge about the hashtags and the caption. And everyone was like, “Why haven’t we known this information before? So, if you’re heavy on Instagram and really all apps have some type of blog where they’re doing updates but Instagram does a really good job at giving information to users because they want them to utilize the platform the best.

Jacey Corley (33:54):
But going back to your initial question, they are important, I like to again put it in this content pillar. You’re going to have these really, really high hashtags that have millions and millions of posts. You’re going to have these medium hashtags that maybe they’re a few million and the list goes on, maybe a couple thousand and then maybe there’s these really, really niche specific hashtags that maybe there’s just a couple hundred. The general rule of thumb I like to say is have a mix of all of those, have some really top performing ones, have some medium performance ones and have those low ones. Because the reality is if you post a hashtag that’s hashtag law, millions and millions of people are probably going to be using that hashtag.

Jacey Corley (34:49):
So, it’s not a bad thing to use, but you shouldn’t be using all of the ones that are having millions and millions because the reality is the more niche specific you get, the more likely when people go to explore these tags, your content’s going to pop up.

Bob Simon (35:06):
Yeah, because can actually, if you start to put a hashtag in, you can see how many posts they have with that hashtag, it’ll actually show you. So, just practically if you go on Instagram, you put in hashtag, it’ll show you how many posts with that. But I want to show if people are watching on our YouTube channel, on justiceteampodcast.com, look how pretty Michelle’s West Coast Lemons Feed is and this is with intent, right? I forget what these things are called, like the little save story things and look so pretty. You have an RV cars, facts, frequently answered questions or ask questions and awards. What are those called? Those little thingies and then what do you do with them?

Michelle Fonseca-Kamana (35:44):
It’s been a while since I made those. I think they’re the highlights where you can put in different things that you’ve shared on your story that are easy to reach. So, if there’s something on RVs that you posted and you want people to just be able to click on whenever if they didn’t see your story but they’ll be able to see it later on, you can save them to those highlights. And it’s pretty simple, I’ve made all those covers on Canva, very, very easy, very cheap platform. And that’s honestly how I keep my whole page pretty, I make all the covers on there. It’s very cost effective, it’s like $120 a year for the paid version and there’s no limit to what you can do with Canva I highly, highly recommend that for any solo out there on a budget that wants some help with trying to make it look as nice as possible.

Bob Simon (36:37):
Yeah, and same thing like Jacey you just did the Bourbon of Proof handle for the one event we have coming up and it’s beautiful. You do this with intent and you can scroll down and you see all the different photos. First of all, how long does that take you to do because it’s impressive?

Jacey Corley (36:53):
Well, if Instagram wouldn’t have flagged me as potential spam because I was posting so many in a row, it would’ve taken me a lot less time. There’s actually applications that you can use, so that type of feed is what you would call a grid feed. And the reason for we did it specifically for your Bourbon of Proof tour is we wanted to use it as a promotional tool. At the end of the day, social content, it has the potential to come alive again, weeks down the road you can have a real let’s say that you used an audio that wasn’t trending at the time and then a month later it’s getting thousands and thousands of views. So, with that, as far as on your personal page, we’re posting on this content, we’re promoting the speakers, we’re promoting what a kick ass time it’s going to be.

Jacey Corley (37:52):
But that content can sometimes only live for 20 to 24 hours. So, using the grid style specifically for Bourbon of Proof, I wouldn’t personally recommend it if you were constantly pumping out content but using it as a promotional tool for just another CTA. What we do in your captions, if you want to go, Michelle, you mentioned this earlier about just being able to find information and how important it is. We don’t want people to look and so that means going, we can go to your personal website that has all the tour information. We can go to your personal Instagram that has all the tour information and it’s another CTA. You can go to the Bourbon of Proof Instagram page and you’re going to get all that information. You’re going to know when the tour is, what the tour is, where to buy tickets and shameless plug, you can go to Bourbon of Proof tour Instagram and buy tickets now at the LinkedIn bio.

Bob Simon (38:54):
And that’s the thing, they could have this call to action, again it’s all free to do all these things and to promote it and reach out and do it with intent. Michelle, you’ve done all this yourself, homegrown your own practice, it has exploded in two years with the use of social media and specific branding. But when is it time to hire somebody to help you? Is that decision coming? Do you have anything on the horizon? What does that look like?

Michelle Fonseca-Kamana (39:20):
Honestly, I love doing the social media part of it so much, it’s one of my favorite parts of the job, but it’s a personal preference. So, for me, I actually just hired my first employee but it’s not going to be for social media, it’s going to be for intake which is my pain point. So, you’re going to get to a point where your time is going to be more limited but you might also have some more money to work with. So, that’s going to come as you develop your practice and you’re going to know. Because you’re going to know there’s only so many hours in the day, you’re going to start feeling burned out, you’re going to start noticing that you can’t keep this level of work up indefinitely.

Michelle Fonseca-Kamana (40:02):
So, I know one of my good friends, Tally Goody is in the process of hiring someone to help her with her social media. So, it’s just as time goes, you’ll know when it’s time to bring on a team member to help you out. But it’s also, if you love it, then delegate things that you want help with. For me, I love the social media thing, I’m not going hire someone for that but I am hiring around my practice to be able to handle everything.

Bob Simon (40:34):
And Tally’s a good example that she uses a lot of her stuff to help young lawyers or kids in law school to let her know what it’s like, funny, entertaining reels, but educational in a very specific demographic and market that she’s trying to help. So, do you and Tally have something on the horizon that you guys are working on? And hopefully when we drop this podcast, it might be good timing for what you guys have so explain to us what’s going on.

Michelle Fonseca-Kamana (41:02):
Well, thank you for asking Bob. So, Tally and I do have something in the work. So, Tally has done an incredible job growing her practice. Her main platform is TikTok and she’s absolutely crushed it on TikTok, she is the master at that. My genre is a little bit more Instagram reels heavy and we’ve been doing these talks for a while now and it’s gotten to the point where we get so many questions about the logistics. How do I actually make a reel? What buttons do I press? What does all this mean? What is a draft? How do I get a trending audio? What’s a trending audio, what’s a green screen?

Michelle Fonseca-Kamana (41:44):
So, what we are planning to do is do a deep dive and do a TikTok and reels 101 where we will teach everyone exactly what buttons to press. How we go from step one to figuring out what audios we want to use to post production. We’re about to press post and what that looks like. So, keep an eye out for that, we are going to have a live webinar on April 14th at 11:30 AM and it will also be available on demand for purchase. So, keep an eye out for that, you will it in our links in bio when that time comes. But definitely join in, it’s going to be something that isn’t out there right now. So, it’s going to be very how to, very hands on and it will teach you exactly how to do what we do.

Bob Simon (42:34):
Very practical good stuff, so look out for that a call to action or CTA will likely be on Michelle’s at West Coast Lemons handle on Instagram to tell you everything that you need to know. So, Jacey we sit and chat, we’re on three different chat platforms Jacey where we go back and forth all day with the stuff we’re doing. And sometimes you have to reign me in and be like, “Why the F did you post that, because you can’t be doing that right now?” But do you like my green screen stuff, I didn’t ask you Jacey, do you like this? I found out to use the green screen by playing around on my social media and I think it’s hilarious, but I want to know your thoughts.

Jacey Corley (43:10):
Oh my gosh, it’s one of those things, I wake up and I check your feed and sometimes I get surprised and sometimes I don’t. So, when I do get surprised, it’s always that, “All right, I’m going to go look and see what this post is about.” But no, your green screen was great, implemented and executed very, very nicely. Good job on that but going back to the very first point that we talked about is understanding who you are on social media and you being the outgoing and funny person in real life and you are exactly who you are on your Instagram, I think it works. And at the end of the day, we still want you to be you and if you want to post that piece of content and it still falls into really who you are as a brand. Yeah, sometimes, like I said, I wake up and I’ll text you and I’m like, “Okay Bob, but let’s have a chat,” but no, great screen was great.

Bob Simon (44:19):
And Michelle, I don’t know how you feel about this, but I generally think Facebook is more for, if you want to do a little more political stuff, I try not, I try my hardest not to do it on Instagram. I try to be very neutral, sometimes I can’t help myself. But do you do the same type of intent with across those platforms?

Michelle Fonseca-Kamana (44:39):
Yeah, I do see a lot more political battles and controversy. Controversy does sell, so if that’s part of your genre, I know what is it, Lou Shapiro does a brilliant job with Facebook and using the political climate and what’s going on to just have a ton of people engage with his page. So, it can be done very, very well but there’s also this very fine line where you might just start wars on your page and people might throw it back to you. So, I try to stay out of that and just use it as some subtle self-promotion. Like, “Oh here’s going on with the business, here’s what’s going on with me,” that’s the lane that I try to stay in, especially on Facebook.

Bob Simon (45:25):
And speaking of controversy, I think some of the highest views and shares that I see on mine are things that are a little controversial. When I had the one Gerardi letter that he sent me years ago, like that by far, I think it performed so well. But it was real, it was true, put it out there and people just like, “Oh this is fucking crazy.” And Jacey did a good to that, but how do you like them Apples cut it out at the end but people do love controversies. I know people that have, it looks like they don’t have a whole lot of followers on Instagram, but their views on their stories are like 10,000 to 20,000 because they’re putting controversial stuff on there.

Bob Simon (46:03):
So, they’re actually getting high engagement and people look at their page like, oh, they have a couple thousand followers, but they’re getting 20,000 views on their stories because of controversy. So, do you ever think about doing, have talked to Jacey about it but I just want to start almost like a burner meme account totally anonymous and just really fuck with people. Jacey talk me out of it.

Jacey Corley (46:24):
Yeah, I feel like I’d be holding you and you’re already cutting one foot off the ledge and I’d be trying to pull you back.

Bob Simon (46:31):
Yeah, yeah, well we are running out time here. Sorry Jacey we’re running out of time, but I wanted to give you the opportunity, how do people find you? You’ve noticed, look what I did, I put App Planet Fun Bob is my name here so people are watching, they’re going to see App Planet, Fun Bob is my name, take that Michelle, well done. But how do they contact you Jacey? Jacey, how do they contact you?

Jacey Corley (46:56):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I’m on all the platforms as well, my personal handle is Jacey Mara, my first name, last name M-A-R-A. But I’d love for you to connect with us on the Outlier page, outlier_creative_agency and we’re all the time highlighting clients, posting tips and tricks for you to up your, not only social media game but video branding and just all around in that marketing space. So, you’ll find my face there a lot.

Bob Simon (47:31):
Congrats to Oca, Outlier Creative Agency for winning the Gold Gavel this year.

Jacey Corley (47:38):
We did, we did.

Bob Simon (47:39):
But what did you win for?

Jacey Corley (47:43):
Such an exciting moment. Athea Trial Lawyers for best brand video and it’s something we’re really, really proud of because we were up against some massive agencies. And we’ve only been in business two years and the hustle is real and we’re a small tight knit team and to be able to stand in that space and make a name for ourself is huge, it’s huge. We’re very, very, very grateful to all the clients that we get to work with to even have that opportunity so thank you.

Bob Simon (48:16):
I’m just very happy that Don Draper’s team didn’t win again so thank you for serving that. Michelle, how does everybody a hold of you?

Michelle Fonseca-Kamana (48:25):
So, get a hold of me, I’m on Instagram @westcoastlemons, that is where I live basically. So, reach out there, send me a DM, any questions you guys have especially about social media, growing your law firm I’m an open book. I didn’t have a lot of resources starting out, so I’m happy to help anyone that is even thinking about starting their own firm or trying to dive a little bit deeper into the social media world. It works and it’s free.

Bob Simon (48:54):
Totally free and just invest your time wisely. You can literally slide into everybody’s DMs on this podcast and they will get back to you and help you. So, you need time in this world where, I’m telling somebody the other day I started cutting grass as a kid to make money, send up, putting flyers on everybody’s doors, not even go on the next-door app and just literally send a message to people so it’s so much easier please use it people, let’s not be silly. Thanks everybody for coming on for this episode of The Justice Team podcast. Thanks for listening, reach out to our guests, they’re very cool, nice people and we’d like hanging out with them. So, thanks everybody for coming on and thank you for listening or viewing whatever you want to do.

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